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| Christian Matzke: Source http://www.proppingupthemythos.com/ |
a) A need to compare the film Prometheus to HP Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness.
As a Lovecraft nerd, Christian Matzke liked to think about Lovecraft’s novel At the Mountains of Madness. he was able to share a sketch or two about it.
At first in the Perfect Organism podcast simply provided a sketch of an idea shared with the public in Perfect Organism and later would elaborate on it on AVP Podcast, everything that he has to say on the matter can be re-addressed.
The story of ‘At the Mountains of Madness’ features an alien species that colonizes Earth, and accidentally makes humanity
They have a servitor race, a slave race of creatures called the Shoggoths that they use to build their habitats and do all their menial labour.
Then the Shoggoths rise up, they overthrow these elder things and that was kind of running rampant and they hate everything that the Elder Things ever made, including humans.
He wanted to present how everything compared to various things in that story such as the ancient ruins, the elder things, the shoggoths.
In a summary of his idea, he wanted to compare the engineers to the old ones and then the black goo would become the shoggoths stand in because it’s a tool they are using and gets out of control.
We see the wonderful ghost like recording of the engineers that are running from something that’s killing them, that he thought would be analogous to the shoggoths’ revolt. The trilobite creature comes from the black goo and that would;d be the most shoggoths like thing with its writing tentacles etc
Chris Matzke: (12:36) think that the…enough plot points in Prometheus are livens directly from at The Mountains of Madness that nobody involved wants to say out aloud because you star getting lawyers involved, when you do that, er, the fourth Pirates lf the Caribbean Movie accidently lifted story elements from a novel and so they had to go to the novelists and get him to sign off on it, and so this poor guy, it’s nothing like his book but there’s just enough story points that so they didn’t get sued later, they had to rope him in on it
Yes, so Prometheus. Should we, is it worth giving a quick synopsis of the mountains of madness , so that our poor listeners who are having it spoiled can really see what we’re talking about
Christian Matzke; (23:17) I feel like one interpretation if you’re gonna compare the text is that the engineers are the old ones. they’re the creators that you know make human life exist and I think if you use that comparison then the black goo is actually becomes the shoggoths stand in because it’s a tool, it’s something they are using, it gets out of control, erm we have the wonderful ghost like , an, recording of the engineers running from something that’s killing them, that’s, that’s analogous to the shoggoths revolt, obviously the trilobite comes from the black goo and that is the most shoggoth-esque , thing, you know, with its white writhing tentacles and everything like that, that’s not the only interpretation , and at the end of the podcast to throw out my , my crazy theory , My Lovecraft interpretation of this film , for now though, I think that, I think that most people would say that, Patrick that the old ones and the engineers are the… (Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke: As as it should be. As it should be. I have this just because of where I'm coming from as as a a Lovecraft nerd, the novel At the Mountains of Madness is of this this alien species that colonizes Earth, accidentally makes humanity and they have this servitor race, a slave race of creatures called the Shoggoths that they use to build their stuff and do all their menial labor. The Shoggoths rise up, they overthrow these elder things and that was kind of running rampant and they hate everything that the elder things ever made including humans. I think this can be applied to Prometheus. I think that what we're seeing at the beginning of the film, the engineers are the Shoggoths, they are the servitor race, The Shoggoths rise up, they overthrow these elder things and that was kind of running rampant and they hate everything that the elder things ever made including humans. I think this can be applied to Prometheus. (AVP Galaxy podcast?)
b) The Engineers and Prometheus
b.i) The Engineers as the old ones and perhaps again the shoggoths
Christian had decided that the engineers are the Old Ones
Then he had the other point of view that the engineers represented the shoggoths as described in HP Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness
b.ii) What was teardrop ship?
There was the teardrop shaped mother ship at the beginning of Prometheus , it seemed like a flying saucer and we never know what it really is.
b.iii) Who was in the teardrop ship?
He decided that those inside were the creator race, who he would think of as the old ones, or perhaps even the Space jockeys that he would also refer to as ‘the elephant trunks’, and inside that ship was something that he thought was Prometheus,
b.iv) Who really was Prometheus?
Prometheus would be a god like entity and the shoggoths here as the engineers are doing his bidding as servitors
- Christian Matzke: (41:00) i posited earlier that the engineers are the old ones. If we’re going on that.
I'm going to take that back now.My interpretation is that the engineers are the shoggoths. There is this weird silver spaceship in the opening sequence of the film that is a smooth almond shaped ship that we've never seen again and never saw before. Those are the old ones. Something is inside that ship and I'm going to call it Prometheus, so Prometheus is in that ship, there's a god like entity and the shoggoths, now engineers are doing his bidding.(Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke:. I think that what we're seeing at the beginning of the film, the engineers are the Shoggoths, they are the servitor race, There's something in the spaceship up in the air that looks like a flying saucer. We never know what that is, we never see what that is. That's the actual creator race. Maybe those are the elephant trunks. The actual space jockeys. The actual space jockeys, you know. (AVP podcast 2025)
c) Change in use of the mysterious domed building in Prometheus
c.i) An invitation to the stars
So the shoggoths sacrifice themselves to seed the planet and this would a prehistorical period.
The engineers would later be sent to Earth to lead humans in certain places and guide them
That is why we have paintings, these markings and these caves, with star maps that are found all over the Earth in the form of paintings, reliefs to tell people “Come to this star. Come and meet us at this star”
- Christian Matzke: (42:00)The Shoggoths sacrifice themselves to seed these planets, right, and this is all in the prehistory sort of period. The Shoggoths are also sent back. The engineers are sent to Earth to , to lead humans in certain places, and guide them, and so that's why we have painting, or these markings and these caves, they're all pointing to a location, (Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke: There's the cave paintings. The cave paintings say, come to this star. come meet us at this star. We go to that star and it's a weapons depot.(AVP Galaxy podcast, February 2025)
c.ii) A corrupted civilisations
But what the humans from Earth discover when they get to that location is a place that has been corrupted
It was described as looking like a biological warfare lab, but while it is a weapons depot, he decided that this was not what its intention was and it wasn’t always such a place.
- Christian Matzke: (42:39)when in the, in the film humans get to that location, what they discover is a place that has been corrupted. Okay, it's described as looking like a er, biological warfare erm, erm lab, but that's not what its intention was. The place has clearly been taken over so at some point between the opening scene and the rest of the film, there has been a revolt. The Shoggoths have revolted, (Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke:. The whole place has been, you know, sort of retrofit by this either splinter group or the entire Oh, that does make some sense there. Yeah. And the final bit to that is that there are holes in the gigantic human head, there's holes across the face. When we go to Covenant there's no holes on those faces, they're just the huge heads. At the Mountains Of Madness the Shoggoths burn holes in all of the artwork that the Elder Things had made in the exact same pattern. This is completely random but I'm interpreting it as definitely the explanation for this. That they are defacing the face of their God or the face of at least the artwork created by this. So there you go, that's for free. That's my Lovecraftian interpretation of Prometheus but I never thought, never thought about modern Prometheus being the explanation of the title. (AVP Galaxy podcast, February 2025)
c.iii) The splinter group that moved in
He was certain that the domed building had been repurposed
The place has clearly been taken over, so at some point between the opening scene and the rest of the film there has been a revolt as if it were like Lovecraft's Shoggoths who have revolted. it has been retrofitted by a splinter ground.
- Christian Matzke: (43:09) The final reasoning for that that tied us all together and again we're doing more thinking about this than Lindelof ever did. There's the cave paintings. The cave paintings say, come to this star. come meet us at this star. We go to that star and it's a weapons depot. Wasn't always weapons depot. The whole place has been, you know, sort of retrofit by this either splinter group or the entire Oh, that does make some sense there. Yeah. (AVP Podcast 205)
- Christian Matzke:. The whole place has been, you know, sort of retrofit by this either splinter group or the entire Oh, that does make some sense there. Yeah. And the final bit to that is that there are holes in the gigantic human head, there's holes across the face. When we go to Covenant there's no holes on those faces, they're just the huge heads. At the Mountains Of Madness the Shoggoths burn holes in all of the artwork that the Elder Things had made in the exact same pattern. This is completely random but I'm interpreting it as definitely the explanation for this. That they are defacing the face of their God or the face of at least the artwork created by this. So there you go, that's for free. That's my Lovecraftian interpretation of Prometheus but I never thought, never thought about modern Prometheus being the explanation of the title. (AVP Galaxy podcast, February 2025)
d.i) Engineers in their suits
These new angry shoggoths that the engineers are, are almost biomechanical.
d,ii) Something other than a suit?
While people call their outfits suits, Christian decided that he didn't think that they were wearing suits, but these were something inherintly different.
They are free of Prometheus' control
d.iii) Previous civilisation has moved on
The civilisation that told people to go there is now gone.
What it has been replaced with is now hostile to the human race and for Christian this made a lot of sense.
- Christian Matzke: (43:09) These new angry shoggoths, the engineers that are, that are almost biomechanical, I don't, people call them suits, I don't think they're wearing suits, I think they're something inherently different. They're free of Prometheus' control, (Perfect Organism 205)
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e.i) Defaced artwork
In Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness, our two protagonists are going through the complex, they begin to notice the artwork and that it has been altered, as if a different artist has marred the work
"Powncest" is the word that Lovecraft uses to write over, and there are these deep grooves and dots that are marking the feeling they've had.
There are holes across the face
- Christian Matzke: (43:23)They have taken over this location, and in in "At the Mountains of Madness", um, our two protagonists are going through, they start noticing the artwork, it has been altered, that a different artist has marred the work, "powncest" is the word that Lovecraft uses to write over, and there are these deep grooves and dots that are marking the feelings they've had. If you look at the engineer sculpture head in Prometheus, it has these deep grooves and pot marks. If you go to covenant, they don't have those markings. There are some age lines but you don't have these inset, erm, I'm pretty sure it must be the written language, but the face has been defaced, so that's the face of this old one, of this Prometheus, then the the the revolting engineers have defaced that sculpture. They are, now this gets into that Prometheus cycle from from mythology where Prometheus is punished. Every day he is tortured and dies over and over again for giving fire to humanity. I think that what this film is telling us is all of the worlds that they have gone and seeded, these revolting engineers are going to go and destroy one after another in a cyclical fashion that matches the punishment of Prometheus. Now Earth dies, now this planet dies, now this planet dies, and as for the proof of that, when you go to Covenant, the spaceship took them to that planet with a cargo, you know, David says "so I piloted it" No, they went to the planet that it was meant to go to, he misinterprets as the homeworld and he dumps that cargo. That was the intention, that was another of these seeded planets, that's my interpretation anyway.(Perfect Organism 205)
e.ii) Defacing the Prometheus head sculpture
In ‘At the Mountains Of Madness’, the Shoggoths burn holes in all of the artwork that the Elder Things had made in the exact same pattern.
So if you look at the giant sculpture of the engineer head in Prometheus, it has these deep grooves and pot marks.
He was pretty sure that it must be the written language, but whatever the case, the face has been defaced.
- Christian Matzke: Yeah. And the final bit to that is that there are holes in the gigantic human head, there's holes across the face. When we go to Covenant there's no holes on those faces, they're just the huge heads. At the Mountains Of Madness the Shoggoths burn holes in all of the artwork that the Elder Things had made in the exact same pattern. This is completely random but I'm interpreting it as definitely the explanation for this. That they are defacing the face of their God or the face of at least the artwork created by this (AVP Galaxy podcast, February 2025)
e.iii) Head sculptures in Alien Covenant
In Covenant, there are none of those markings
There are some age lines but you don't have these inset.
They’re just huge heads.
He went with what seemed like a completely random idea, but he was interpreting it as definitely the explanation for this, that they are defacing the face of their God or the face of at least the artwork created by this
So that's the face of Prometheus, and then the revolting engineers have defaced the sculpture
e.iv) The mysterious relief depicting a new religion?
He decided that behind the head in the room which that has all of the urns, that is where you see the sculpture that appears to show an alien, and it has the glowing green stone in front of it. That would be a newer religion, the religion of these new engineers. Because they have marked themselves, they have transformed themselves.
They are the ones that are experimenting with this black goo in order to
exact the revenge on what used to be the master race, whatever that is.
- Christian Matzke: (45:10) Behind the head, in that… in the room they have that has all of the urns, that's where you see that sculpture, the monolith that looks to be an alien, has the grow... has the glowing green stone in front of it, that could be a newer religion, this is the religion of these, these new engineers, um and and because they have marked themselves, they have transformed themselves. They're the ones that are experimenting with this black goo in order to exact the revenge on what used to be the master race or the, the whatever. So I think that's all of my points.(Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke: (45:47) But it ties into the idea of Lovecraft's idea of a culture we see at its prime and then we see it decay. We see that it's come back down. And that's why these star maps that are found all over Earth are telling us to go to this place but when you go to this place and the civilisation that told you to go there is now gone and what has replaced it is hostile to us and I think that makes a lot of sense (Perfect Organism 205)
- Christian Matzke:( 46:10) I'm more at peace with that little wrinkle in the movie, I don't understand, why would you give us a map to go to a place that's the origin of where death has been sent to us, it just seems like a contradiction, but so the sense of, to answer your question Jaime, the sense of there having been something that maybe humans could have reached and gotten answers, the answers that Shaw wants, um and having that now gone because like all civilisations, it's , it’s crumbled, it's been, um, it's been replaced with something that's hostile. I think that's really really interesting. Erm and I do like that the film doesn't answer all these questions, this is just entirely my interpretation of it but I think it kind of works What do you guys think of that? (Perfect Organism podcast 205)
205f) Holographic recordings etc
The ghosts life forms of the engineers seen in the holographic recording of them running is horrifying.
There is something unknowable, and he found it good
- Christian Matzke: (51;10)The ghosts, the ghost transmission of them running is horrifying. There is something there that is unknowable, and that's good, that's good. (Perfect Organism podcast 205),
g) Problems with the movie
Christian Matzke felt that the movie undercut itself with its rapid editing and terrible dialogue.
He wanted to find the find the right language to switch to it that he didn't know, but he could pretend that really they were saying smart things.
He didn't want to be destracted by it or by the fact that David was touching everything, he saw that there was some wonderfully haunting imagery in that first exploration of the caves and find that room.
- Christian Matzke (51;17):. I think the movie keeps undercutting itself with the. it's too rapidly edited, and the terrible dialogue. If you can get past those, I've said this before, I want to find the right language track to switch it to that I don't know so that I can pretend they're really really saying smart things, but if I'm not being destracted by that or by David touching everything, there is some wonderfully haunting imagery in, in that first exploration of the caves and finding that room, (Perfect Organism podcast 205)
- Christian Matzke: Oops, there's a spill, we've got to go into stasis and when they wake up, exactly like Alex is saying, this thing that we already don't like because we were forced to make it by our oppressive overlords, now it's here in my bedroom and it's talking to me and as you said, it brought a dog and the dog is talking to me and this is all very, very scary. I love all of that but that's my personal explanation for what we see at the beginning and then the hostility that we see. (AVP Galaxy podcast, February 2025)
j) Size of the people and furniture
j.i)Human sized furniture in Alien Covenant
As far as Alien Covenant went, even beyond the wardrobe, he found the benches and the tables were human sized.
He wondered how one would forget you have to have these things at is it fourteen foor tall or nine feet tall when there are these low benches and table.
He decided that what were known on the planet to be engineers were actually human sized and they're just another seed race.
- Christian Matzke:(51:59)., erm, and as far as in Covenant, even beyond the er, the wardrobe, the benches and the tables are human sized. Like how do you, how do your forget you're meant to have these things like fourteen feet or even nine feet tall when you have these low low benches and tables. No, they're human sized, they're just another another seed race. Are we defending Prometheus? (Perfect Organism podcast 205)
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